-Benjamin
We have talked much about whether Christian or even theistic beliefs have any rational basis. I would like to steer away from that topic for now, and consider whether religion, and specifically Christianity, still have merit on some level to society and individuals.
I would assume that most atheist will claim that religion does more harm than good and that the human race would be much better off if we scrapped it all-together. I disagree and would like to look at some pros and cons. I’d like to do this by introducing each point and then having everyone’s thoughts. Once we’ve come to a concensus or killed the topic we’ll move onto the next point. I’ll bounce back and forth between pros and cons to mix it up. When I run out of points I’ll leave it open for anyone else to purpose a point for us to discuss if they feel they have something to add.
Charity: Christianity puts a large emphasis on caring for your fellow human-beings and aiding the less fortunate. There are few other places that harp about social justice and charity like church. There are lots of verses about it, many sermons taught on it, and many Christian organizations focused on it. Christianity is socially minded and that’s good. That’s not to say that someone outside of the church can’t be socially minded, or that everyone inside the church is, but I will claim that the subject is discussed more frequently in the church. As such, the topic is more frequently on people’s minds and I believe they are more likely to do acts of charity since it is more of a social expectation.
10 comments:
Okay, this is Leif. I'm in for the great world of debate once again.
Okay, let's break this down:
1) "Christianity puts a large emphasis on caring for your fellow human beings and aiding the less fortunate."
- I agree. When we examine most sects of christianity (including the 'cult' ones like LDS and Adventists) we can see that any sensible interpretation of the bible leads one to believe in helping mankind. What I would call into question, however, is the way this has been further interpreted in the past. "Helping fellow men" was once taken to mean subjugating the "lesser" black men in order to keep them from degenerating and hurting themselves. It was also taken to mean "re-educating" the aboriginal peoples and compeltely stripping their kids of any cultural heritage they once had. For the most part, however, I would allow that christianity has "good intentions."
2) "There are few other places that harp about social justice and charity like church."
- Again, here I agree. There are FEW other places. However, there ARE other places.
3) "The subject is discussed more frequently ... the topic is more frequently on people's minds...."
- I disagree here. What you are saying is the equivalent of "odds are..." I do not see the correlation between hearing about something and actual volition to do it oneself. We hear about politics all the time, and yet there is also a huge struggle with voter turnout when there isn't some sort of outragous struggle between the parties that attracts attention. Additionally, you cannot validly claim that one's religion causes one's charity any more than I can claim that a charitable person is drawn towards a charitable religion. You've got to cite some studies or something that back this up.
Overall, I agree that Christianity supports charitable behavior, and the stories and sermons which inundate children with the notion of charity likely help them get into a charitable mindset. However, joe-average christian is in church-related situations for maybe 4 hours out of a 168-hour week (112 waking hours), which really isn't very much, and I would argue that many non-christian parents try to teach their kids about charity just as strongly as christian ones, and many christian parents do not actually teach charity to their kids.
I am appreciating both the post, and the comment above.
I also agree that Christianity does promote charity.
However, without going into a long comment about this, I would like to point out that Christian-motivated charity is more often than not based in teachings about "reaping and sowing", or "Jesus did it to you so you should do it to others", etc. etc., rather than genuine charity. Thats right, I just said that most Christian teachings about giving aren't based in an unconditional-giving paradigm, even if it is called such.
Remember, your treasure will be in heaven...Love as you want to be Loved...Give and it will be given back to you overflowing.
I am not stating that Christians do not give for the sake of giving, or that christian love is soley based or rooted in selfish motives. No, I am not being so arrogant. But I do think my point has some substance. I look forward to some dialogue about this.
I see the point, but I think the potential problem (if there is one) is that Christianity defines what they mean by ‘charity’ independent of the rest of us. In addition to this I think the way Christianity teaches value, dramatically influence how and who is considered ‘in need,’ and particularly effects how they want to go about meeting these ‘needs.’
This MIGHT be illustrated in how some religious communities will preach spiritual salvation over physical salvation; in that they will think saving a soul is more important than any other action. Also, it is usually just a few lines into a dialogue with a Christian when they reveal their central notion that primarily Jesus is the solution for every problem; extra stuff comes later or is seen as add ons, and not real solutions on their own.
If we feel badly about ethnocentrism (the idea that we expect to solve another culture’s problems by making them like us) then why wouldn’t we also frown upon theo-centrism (the idea that we expect to solve another’s problems by making them hold the same theological views as us)?
ok, as to Leif's third point, I don't think I need to cite studies about the effect of charitable sermons on the charitable attitude of the average Christian because I believe that we can simply look at other real-world examples: Commercials. Commercials work on the assumption that the more often a potential customer hears about or sees a product the more likely they are to buy it. It works or they wouldn't do it. I am applying the same idea to charity. If people hear about giving to the needy more often then they are thinking about it and are thus more likely to do. They may not, but I think they are more likely to than someone who never hears anything about it at all.
Yes, non-christian parents can teach about charity, and yes christian parents might not and parental example has a significant impact. But families that are immersed in Christianity will be hounded with messages of helping out their neighbor and I believe this increases the probability that they will do so.
As to Ben's remark about that
"most Christian teachings about giving aren't based in an unconditional-giving paradigm, even if it is called such."
Perhaps there are some who only do these good things so that they can earn merit badges from Jesus, but honestly I think that as Ben Wade said in 3:10 to Yuma.
“That’s why I don’t mess around with doing anything good, Dan. You do one good deed for somebody, I imagine it’s habit forming. Something decent, you see that grateful look in their eyes, I imagine it makes you feel like Christ hisself.”
most people will love doing good things just for that great feeling you get when you help someone out. And that's not really selfless either is it. So everything we do is selfish? Maybe, or maybe it's okay to feel good for doing good. I think it's natural.
All that is to say that I would argue that most christians do the good things because they feel it is their "duty" or because they just want to help people. And I think doing something because you enjoy it or because you are acting on responsibility are both very honorable reasons for doing something.
word verification: "oushiess"
Joel's post:
"Christianity defines what they mean by ‘charity’ independent of the rest of us."
I would like to hear more on this point.
"In addition to this I think the way Christianity teaches value, dramatically influence how and who is considered ‘in need,’ and particularly effects how they want to go about meeting these ‘needs.’"
I would also like an example or better description of this so I fully understand what you mean in this statement.
You may have a valid point a about Chirstians sometimes (probably often) being more interested in spiritual than physical salvation. However, one must consider that from their world-view it would be very uncharitable not to share the message of their faith.
However, more of the point that I was trying to make is that Christianity does Charity well. I think that through the generations we can see the number of aid organizations and hospitals and so forth that have been started in the name of Christianity as a worthy argument in favor of this point.
On the argument that "Christianity does Charity well," I think that I would agree. There is turmoil about the "hidden agendas," but overall I am inclined to concede the point.
I think I could wander off into some other issues to critique religion, but for the issue at hand I would side with Leif.
I am interested in knowing the place that this "christianity does charity well" thing has in the presentation as a whole. Is there another article Donkey, Or do you have more to say about this post?
(and does anyone know if Matthew is going to join us?)
my question is what really motivates anyone OUTSIDE of Christianity to sacrifice of themselves for the sake of another? i'm not saying this doesn't happen. it does. it amazes me. it just boggles my mind because in so many cases i don't see it as consistent with the general worldview. at least if one has a decent grasp on who Christ is and what He is about then it makes some sense to respond in self-giving love. i'm not sure i would otherwise. i guess that's one more reason why so many people are better than me.
I believe Jon's point falls under the topic of moral codes which I would like to hit on a bit later if that's cool. Since we've all cautiously agreed that "Christianity does charity well" we can move on to my first con for Christianity. I'll email it to Ben post haste.
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