Many atheists, Dawkins for example, hold the view that religion does more harm than good for the rest of society and ought to be abandoned.
I disagree.
My wish in this discussion was to address pros and cons of a particular religion, Christianity, in order to determine whether the cultural relevance and value to society that I believe Christianity has could be accepted by people who do not share the core beliefs of that religion.
I don’t feel the conversation was very successful. A key factor in this was my inability to identify values that could be agreed upon by atheists. Part of this was perhaps my presentation. I still think that some of the pros could be universal, but was unable to convey them in a way that was agreeable.
The limitations of our medium for discussion are frustrating as well. In a face to face discussion I could make a statement and then clarify any misunderstandings before we had to have a five page discussion about something I wasn’t trying to say. Also, it would have been easier, I think, not to get lost on rabbit trails or at least to deal with them more quickly in a conversation than here.
Another difficulty I found was that it seemed that most of you had your own crusade you wished to wage in the midst of a vaguely related point. This was frustrating in that I felt unable to make the point I set out to.
Perhaps that was another flaw in my method. I have been considering that it might have been better to let everyone bring forth their separate ideas about the pros and cons of Christianity as a group within a greater culture and to discuss those first.
Either way, I’ve become frustrated and don’t feel too motivated to continue that discussion for the time being.
As for conclusions, Ben, I don’t know how much I can offer. I can conclude that I need to develop a better way of pitching an idea so that it won’t be rejected on the basis of my form rather than the merit of the idea.
I can conclude that most of you already feel that there are good things being done in religion and Christianity, but as Ben said,
“In my opinion, if one is doing something good for society, this is good. However, if I had to choose between doing something good, and doing something good which is rooted in a mystical, fictional understanding of existence...I would much rather the first.”
That is fine, but many people would say,
If I had to choose between doing something good, and doing something good because I believe that there is a greater purpose in existence then I would find it easier to do the latter.
I still hold that religion, and therefore Christianity, can bring about a change in a person’s life that can cause them to live a better life and therefore be of more value to someone who does not share their views.
However, the atheist now has to listen to the religious person talk about the religion that changed this person’s and is drawn to wonder whether this person could not simply do the good without having to have a mystical, fictional understanding of existence. In many cases, they could not. Or they could not do it as well.
So… conclusions? Leif said,
“I don't want to be in a debate with someone who is only interested in changing the other side, and refuses to be changed themselves. (And before you start in, Jon, I've BEEN changed, so don't you dare claim some shit about me not willing to be changed in this debate.)”
I have been changed. I can see that I assumed some things incorrectly and need to express myself better.
I have not been changed to see that good things can be found outside of Christianity. The reason for that is because I already knew that.
I have been changed by what Matt said:
“For some folks Christianity helps them be better people. I don't dispute this. For others it's another religion, or a political cause, or something. For me it was stepping out of belief. Not that I'm a saint or anything.”
This helped me to clarify my thoughts.
Matt is right, not everyone seems to need religion to become better people, and for some it is even a hindrance. However, I hold that some people do need it, myself included. I am a more valuable member of society because of Christianity.
So, then, does it not have some merit if it can make just one person a better member of society?
I am curious to know, has anyone else been challenged or changed by what we have discussed here?
Wednesday, February 25, 2009
Monday, February 9, 2009
Focusing on Not Focusing on Ourselves
Ok, so my obvious point here is that Christianity puts a huge emphasis on the importance of being selfless. Sometimes we do it well and sometimes we don’t. As Matt would say, ‘what’s my point?’
Selfishness is the root of all evil deeds. Today’s culture tells us to please ourselves however we wish… as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone… or only hurts big faceless companies… or if it hurts someone who deserves it. How, if we train ourselves to please ourselves first can we ever make the right choices when it comes to a situation of moral consequence? It starts in little ways (like not helping when there are others in need because it inconveniences us), and progresses to the point where spouses feel justified in cheating because they don’t feel appreciated in their relationship. Or it leads to criminals who justify themselves for any number of reasons.
Selfishness is the plague of humanity and there are few worldviews that challenge us to think of ourselves last. Most of these are religious and give spiritual reasons for the importance of selflessness.
I am curious, has anyone experienced a focus on constant selflessness in a secular setting? I know there are selfless ideals, but for the most part I think it’s a mixed message and leads to mixed results. Obviously, the individualistic mind-set permeates into the lives of religious people, but the ideals are still there and this results in many people who make drastic changes to live for others.
Selfishness is the root of all evil deeds. Today’s culture tells us to please ourselves however we wish… as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone… or only hurts big faceless companies… or if it hurts someone who deserves it. How, if we train ourselves to please ourselves first can we ever make the right choices when it comes to a situation of moral consequence? It starts in little ways (like not helping when there are others in need because it inconveniences us), and progresses to the point where spouses feel justified in cheating because they don’t feel appreciated in their relationship. Or it leads to criminals who justify themselves for any number of reasons.
Selfishness is the plague of humanity and there are few worldviews that challenge us to think of ourselves last. Most of these are religious and give spiritual reasons for the importance of selflessness.
I am curious, has anyone experienced a focus on constant selflessness in a secular setting? I know there are selfless ideals, but for the most part I think it’s a mixed message and leads to mixed results. Obviously, the individualistic mind-set permeates into the lives of religious people, but the ideals are still there and this results in many people who make drastic changes to live for others.
Tuesday, February 3, 2009
Community: Curing the Terrible Disease of Loneliness
In today’s, high-paced, technological culture nothing is more easy than avoiding your fellow human beings. Community, however, is ever so important for a healthy and complete human experience.
I would suggest that Christianity puts a greater than normal focus on community. Interacting with those around you and attempting to have a positive impact on your community are key values in the church. Granted the average Christian’s motivations may not be entirely unintentional.
I would suggest that Christianity puts a greater than normal focus on community. Interacting with those around you and attempting to have a positive impact on your community are key values in the church. Granted the average Christian’s motivations may not be entirely unintentional.
Church is about community. It’s about different people being forced to live together. It doesn’t always work out, but we are purposeful about trying. If someone has cut themselves off from others or is stuck in a secluded situation like a hospital or old-folks-home then the church is fairly good about attempting to reach them.
We need to pursue relationships with other and I believe that Christianity does a good job of emphasizing this.
Monday, February 2, 2009
Interlude
This question goes to all who have been a part of both The Mythographer, and No Worthy Title:
I am formally asking for your permission to edit, and print the discussion specifically pertaining to my choice-journey on The Mythographer (from the post: "Listening and Speaking for Big Kids Only" to "Who's That Little Vagabond Who Stole the Secular Bible"), and the current discussion on this page. If everyone is okay with me making a hard copy of these discussions, please let me know if you would like a hard copy as well. If you are not okay with this, I will respect that, and not make hard copies.
-Benjamin
Saturday, January 24, 2009
Sins of the Fathers
The crusades, the Inquisition, and witch burnings to name a few. Christianity has a checkered past. Time and time again I hear this past sited as a reason why Christianity is the plague of humanity. I think this is ridiculous. There are plenty of better reasons so could we just let this one die? Yes, Christianity was involved in some really violent, really awful events and we do hold a certain amount of responsibility, but at the same time I think everyone needs to remember context. First of all, these events took place in the past. I think people seem to forget one little fact about the past: it was really freakin’ violent! Everyone was killing and maiming each other on a regular basis. It wasn’t just Christians.
Also, it just happens to be that a large portion of the population was nominal Christians at these times. Many of these people said they were Christians because everyone was. As a result, many things were done in the name of Christianity that were more political than anything else.
I realize these were horrible things and that these sins will always be on our shoulders, but I think it is illogical to put the blame on Christianity when it had more to do with greedy or power-hungry people.
Other aspects of this that Leif mentioned were slavery and forcing our culture on aboriginals. As to slavery, I think that was also a cultural situation where everyone was doing it and we only see it as bad from our world-view where the idea of equality has a much stronger foothold. As to forcing our culture, this was a much more charitable option than what most other people wanted to do, which involved killing them all off.
And I would also argue that this forcing of culture still exists today and it is not exclusive to Christianity. How often have you heard someone complain about asian drivers or about the conditions of black and Hispanic neighborhoods or consider how we Canadians complain about how natives raise their children or their work ethic. In all of these situations, and many more, people basically want to force their culture on another culture. It is a much bigger problem and is not a result of Christianity.
Christianity has some skeletons in its closet that I’m sure most Christians regret today but which have been held against them unjustly
Also, it just happens to be that a large portion of the population was nominal Christians at these times. Many of these people said they were Christians because everyone was. As a result, many things were done in the name of Christianity that were more political than anything else.
I realize these were horrible things and that these sins will always be on our shoulders, but I think it is illogical to put the blame on Christianity when it had more to do with greedy or power-hungry people.
Other aspects of this that Leif mentioned were slavery and forcing our culture on aboriginals. As to slavery, I think that was also a cultural situation where everyone was doing it and we only see it as bad from our world-view where the idea of equality has a much stronger foothold. As to forcing our culture, this was a much more charitable option than what most other people wanted to do, which involved killing them all off.
And I would also argue that this forcing of culture still exists today and it is not exclusive to Christianity. How often have you heard someone complain about asian drivers or about the conditions of black and Hispanic neighborhoods or consider how we Canadians complain about how natives raise their children or their work ethic. In all of these situations, and many more, people basically want to force their culture on another culture. It is a much bigger problem and is not a result of Christianity.
Christianity has some skeletons in its closet that I’m sure most Christians regret today but which have been held against them unjustly
Monday, January 19, 2009
Discussing the Good Stuff Once Again
Well, I have finally decided to start up this discussion blog. Donkey has given me this article to post for us to discuss. I am excited to watch where this one leads...
We have talked much about whether Christian or even theistic beliefs have any rational basis. I would like to steer away from that topic for now, and consider whether religion, and specifically Christianity, still have merit on some level to society and individuals.
I would assume that most atheist will claim that religion does more harm than good and that the human race would be much better off if we scrapped it all-together. I disagree and would like to look at some pros and cons. I’d like to do this by introducing each point and then having everyone’s thoughts. Once we’ve come to a concensus or killed the topic we’ll move onto the next point. I’ll bounce back and forth between pros and cons to mix it up. When I run out of points I’ll leave it open for anyone else to purpose a point for us to discuss if they feel they have something to add.
Charity: Christianity puts a large emphasis on caring for your fellow human-beings and aiding the less fortunate. There are few other places that harp about social justice and charity like church. There are lots of verses about it, many sermons taught on it, and many Christian organizations focused on it. Christianity is socially minded and that’s good. That’s not to say that someone outside of the church can’t be socially minded, or that everyone inside the church is, but I will claim that the subject is discussed more frequently in the church. As such, the topic is more frequently on people’s minds and I believe they are more likely to do acts of charity since it is more of a social expectation.
-Benjamin
We have talked much about whether Christian or even theistic beliefs have any rational basis. I would like to steer away from that topic for now, and consider whether religion, and specifically Christianity, still have merit on some level to society and individuals.
I would assume that most atheist will claim that religion does more harm than good and that the human race would be much better off if we scrapped it all-together. I disagree and would like to look at some pros and cons. I’d like to do this by introducing each point and then having everyone’s thoughts. Once we’ve come to a concensus or killed the topic we’ll move onto the next point. I’ll bounce back and forth between pros and cons to mix it up. When I run out of points I’ll leave it open for anyone else to purpose a point for us to discuss if they feel they have something to add.
Charity: Christianity puts a large emphasis on caring for your fellow human-beings and aiding the less fortunate. There are few other places that harp about social justice and charity like church. There are lots of verses about it, many sermons taught on it, and many Christian organizations focused on it. Christianity is socially minded and that’s good. That’s not to say that someone outside of the church can’t be socially minded, or that everyone inside the church is, but I will claim that the subject is discussed more frequently in the church. As such, the topic is more frequently on people’s minds and I believe they are more likely to do acts of charity since it is more of a social expectation.
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